This podcast introduces a glimpse into our colleague, Johan’s work as presented in dialogue with the brilliant Alis Anagnostakis.
It is so well worth listening to – there’s no hint of hubris and both share their vulnerability, knowing, curiosities and inquiries to leave a lasting impact. Alis brings her intelligence and enthusiasm to pursue incisive questions and I experienced the wonderful delight as she asked the question that was already forming in my mind. In conversation, Johan skilfully manages to condense complex issues and scientific knowledge in a beautifully digestible form magically leaving me feeling engaged and empowered rather than leaving me feeling small and excluded from the academic nature of the work.
At a later date Johan’s latest paper and forthcoming book will be available to those of us who wish to go more deeply into the material. After listening to the podcast, I was lucky to meet with Johan and ask some follow up questions that were triggered for me.
Alis and Johan talked about the importance of neuroscience for adult development, and I wanted to explore the more specific relevance for leadership. Johan responded by saying that much is on offer in books and theories about what leaders should do and how to lead but the more important slant needed is looking at ‘how to become the person to do what needs to be done’. The value of action inquiry and Johan’s work point to the significance in recognising how our senses and perceptions are easily fooled. Interrupting this is possible with critical feedback from others, taking action by putting yourself into new experiences that will be uncomfortable – he says ‘development is full of discomfort. We can’t grow without some degree of discomfort.’
He goes further than the action inquiry we can do alone and the feedback and inquiry we gain in communion with others and talks about the learning and development offered by the entire system of the universe. There is so much more to unpack and explore in future work offered by Johan.
The second question I raised was a little more personal. In the Podcast Johan talks about his early experience of being a ‘misfit’. I was curious to explore how the insights of neuroscience and adult development have to offer to reframe misfit is a dysfunction towards how to live in a conventional world and systems of work and education from the position of difference. The difference may be one of colour, culture or in this case mindset and the accompanying behaviours, language and disturbance this brings.
We shared our own stories of growing up with absent parents, unkind schools and yet finding eventually a comfort and resilience becoming our chosen quirky selves. Johan described his experience that led to describing himself as a ‘misfit’ with teachers singling him out, punishing him and attaching cruel labels such as ‘stupid’. He talked about how he was lucky to discover early on not to attach his identity to the negative labels given to him and learn through the power of learning, meditating, reading and feedback from others not to live the stories and perspectives given by others. Cracking open the narratives given by others who are in positions of power, staying alive to the discomfort and incongruity maybe allowed Johan to construct his own identity and self-love.
Needless to say, I was very moved by this part of our conversation that, as in the Podcast, Johan’s openness and sharing of how his own bittersweet journey of development allowed me to have my own – neither piggy backing on to his but reflecting on our shared capacity to learn and grow through pain and loss.
These are small fragments of our conversation and the lasting vibration initiated by the podcast. I strongly recommend listening in to the conversation and the conversation you may have with others or in the quiet of your own room.
There is a genius to be had in the alchemy of the conversation between Alis and Johan which invites the space to savour and reflect.